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Author
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Topic: 14 Bit MIDI CC Controllers?
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ChristianSchloesser
Member
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posted 22 April 2011 07:50
 
Does Kyma support 14-bit MIDI CC messages?Happy Eastern!
Chris
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SSC
Administrator
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posted 22 April 2011 16:07
We used to support 14-bit controllers but since so few devices could send them, we took it out. However, you can get the equivalent by using two controllers: one for coarse tuning and the other for fine tuning. For example:!Coarse + ({2.0 raisedTo: -7.0} * !Fine) or !Fine / 128.0 + !Coarse
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SSC
Administrator
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posted 22 April 2011 16:08
P.S. !PitchBend is always a 14-bit controller
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bar|none
Member
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posted 25 April 2011 21:21
Bummer, the eigenharp now sends 14bit CC but still does not do OSC.
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CharlieNorton
Member
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posted 26 April 2011 13:44
Sent to Eigenharp Peeps...(See if we can create some motivation...) Hello I am a Kyma user in London. Does your instrument support OSC? I will buy one if it does. Many thanks Charlie
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bar|none
Member
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posted 27 April 2011 09:34
Haha, well unfortunately, I already own one. The OSC support in Kyma was probably the best feature to happen since getting Kyma. It's really been wonderful for connecting things. Been doing some patches with the Monome Arc and it's a fantastic controller for doing interesting things with Kyma since the resolution can be so high on the knobs as well as the app the knob is driving. This one is and app called PlatedHD which is a high resolution version of Plates that I adapted. Plates is an ARC app for controlling drawable LFO's. The ranges's can be very fine grained float values. I'm using Robert Henke's Granulator patch in MAX but Kyma is calling.
http://www.vimeo.com/22375251
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SSC
Administrator
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posted 27 April 2011 11:32
For now, you could add definitions to Kyma's global map to define 14-bit MIDI controllers. For example, you could use:!wc00 is: (`MIDIController32 / 128) + `MIDIController00. This will let you get the full 14-bit accuracy out of the incoming continuous controllers.
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bar|none
Member
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posted 27 April 2011 13:09
Thx SSC, I understand that it use two CCs to create 1 14 bit effective CC right?But the real problem is that no instrument would actually be able to send 1 param out of two CCs using course and fine grain like that. So I understand the technical solution on the Kyma side but I don't understand how it could be accomplished end to end from an instrument without a proxy. If I have to have a proxy then I would convert to OSC instead anyway. The proxy approach ends up being a but unnatural as well as having the added latency.
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SSC
Administrator
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posted 27 April 2011 15:38
In the standard MIDI protocol, 14-bit controllers are sent as two controllers: Controller N and Controller (N+32). For example, if you want to send cc16 as a 14-bit controller, you would use cc16 for the top 7 bits and cc48 for the bottom 7 bits. This should be what EigenLabs is sending (otherwise, they are not following the standard MIDI protocol and all bets are off).See, for example: http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/reference/midi/protocol/pg02.htm
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bar|none
Member
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posted 27 April 2011 20:30
Ah cool. Learn something new everyday.I will try that then.
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bar|none
Member
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posted 16 May 2011 22:21
@scc
Ok, I tried this with the eigenharp and I got it working.I'm not sure I did it as intended though. You suggested !wc00 is: (`MIDIController32 / 128) + `MIDIController00. I wasn't sure whether !wc00 was a special value mappable in the VCS. I wasn't able to get the VCS to map to this. I just started doing things more literally like "!Reverb is: (`MIDIController32 / 128) + `MIDIController00." And using the event sources where appropriate. Interestingly when I do this, I get two faders appearing in the VCS for the two controllers needed for 14 bit. They are labelled "MIDIcn00" and "MIDIcn32". I assume because of these lines in my global map. !cc00 is: (`MIDIController00 displayAs: #fader).
!cc32 is: (`MIDIController32 displayAs: #fader). I'm a bit confused though why they appear instead of "Reverb" Also, I know I have asked this too many times but per key KeyTimbre ala polyaftertouch? You had mentioned there was a way but it was yet to be documented. Is there a way? Thanks in advance. I feel like I am slowly unlocking the power of the eigenharp with KYMA. EigenD has got a really detailed new MIDI mapping capability that gives me 14 bit midi ccs as well as all kinds of response scaling, polytouch etc. The sounds are starting to come alive as they should.
Looks like I can also send polyphonic 14 bit CCs that are mapped across the 16 midi channels by poly note priority.
Can Kyma use multi channel midi for polyphonic control like that. Grasping at straws. [This message has been edited by bar|none (edited 16 May 2011).] [This message has been edited by bar|none (edited 16 May 2011).]
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ChristianSchloesser
Member
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posted 17 May 2011 07:06
Hello everybody !
i added the section at the bottom of this post to my global map...
and it works great ...But i also get two faders widgets instead of one in the VCS... since i really would like to use the "potentiometer" widget to reflect my hardware controller(BCR 2000 and my selfmade ucapps.de MIDIBOX) i don t know how to proceed... Is it possible to define the two Controllers together to form one VCS widget in the global map? All the best from Berlin
Chris
"These are the 14 Bit MIDI controllers by number. Controller values range from 0 to 1."
!wc00 is: (`MIDIController32 / 128) + `MIDIController00.
!wc01 is: (`MIDIController33 / 128) + `MIDIController01.
!wc02 is: (`MIDIController34 / 128) + `MIDIController02.
!wc03 is: (`MIDIController35 / 128) + `MIDIController03.
!wc04 is: (`MIDIController36 / 128) + `MIDIController04.
!wc05 is: (`MIDIController37 / 128) + `MIDIController05.
!wc06 is: (`MIDIController38 / 128) + `MIDIController06.
!wc07 is: (`MIDIController39 / 128) + `MIDIController07.
!wc08 is: (`MIDIController40 / 128) + `MIDIController08.
!wc09 is: (`MIDIController41 / 128) + `MIDIController09. evaluate this to continue:
(10 to: 96) collect: [:i | '!wc'&i&' is: (`MIDIController'&(i+32)&' / 128) + `MIDIController'&i&'.\' withCRs.]
[This message has been edited by ChristianSchloesser (edited 17 May 2011).]
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SSC
Administrator
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posted 17 May 2011 14:44
Do you know which order the Eigenharp and the BCR2000 are sending the two MIDI messages? They can either send the least significant 7 bits first or the most significant 7 bits first. (The order does matter!)Thanks!
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bar|none
Member
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posted 17 May 2011 15:49
I just asked Geert who implemented their advanced midi settings UI.He says, "First LSB then MSB"
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ChristianSchloesser
Member
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posted 17 May 2011 16:20
I use the BCR 2000 with the standard 14Bit CC mode(it supports lots of other MIDI modes too).Mac Midi Monitor shows:
23:22:27.808 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:27.893 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.016 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.186 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.274 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.378 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.458 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.616 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.735 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.860 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:28.951 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:37.371 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:39.039 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:39.682 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 114
23:22:39.786 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
23:22:39.786 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 115
23:22:39.916 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
23:22:39.916 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 116
23:22:40.040 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
23:22:40.040 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 117
23:22:40.761 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
23:22:40.761 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 118
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23:22:41.004 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 119
23:22:41.089 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
23:22:41.089 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 120
23:22:41.269 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:41.494 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:41.634 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:41.790 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 0
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23:22:42.018 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 125
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23:22:42.314 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 127
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23:22:42.816 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:42.994 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:43.120 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:43.288 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:43.356 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:43.542 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:43.759 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.430 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.496 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.581 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.713 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.797 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.878 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:44.973 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:45.080 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:45.147 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:45.208 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
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23:22:45.266 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
23:22:45.266 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 25
23:22:45.471 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 1 1
23:22:45.471 From BCR2000 Port 1 Control 2 33 26 PC MIDIOX: # The first MIDI event received will initiate timestamps
MFile 0 1 120
MTrk
0 TimeSig 4/4 24 8
0 Tempo 500000
0 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
0 Par ch=2 c=33 v=1
38 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
38 Par ch=2 c=33 v=2
76 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
76 Par ch=2 c=33 v=3
99 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
99 Par ch=2 c=33 v=4
122 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
122 Par ch=2 c=33 v=5
149 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
152 Par ch=2 c=33 v=6
192 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
195 Par ch=2 c=33 v=7
216 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
216 Par ch=2 c=33 v=8
243 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
243 Par ch=2 c=33 v=9
273 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
273 Par ch=2 c=33 v=10
307 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
307 Par ch=2 c=33 v=11
353 Par ch=2 c=1 v=0
353 Par ch=2 c=33 v=12
TrkEnd
I send it straight to PacaConnect and everything works perfect thanks to:
!wc01 is: (`MIDIController33 / 128) + `MIDIController01. in the Global Map! The only two little things i really would like in Kyma:
1 - That both CCs would be combined to a single VCS widget.
2 - Also output of 14Bit CCs via the MIDIOutputController Prototype would be awesome! (To use bi-directional communication) Regarding the Eigenharp:
Some versions of the software seem to have a problem with 14Bit CCs see: http://www.eigenlabs.com/forum/threads/id/647/ Here are more tips: http://eigenharps.blogspot.com/2011/03/moog-front-panel-pot-vs-alpha-14bit-cc.html Hope that helps.
All the best
Chris
[This message has been edited by ChristianSchloesser (edited 17 May 2011).]
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posted 17 May 2011 16:27
re Eigenharp issues with 14 bit cc's
Yes indeed but it's been fixed in the version I'm using."Interesting news - it was a bug, Geert had a look at it and provided me a pre-release to test and it is now squashed and ready for inclusion in the next release. " From Release notes: "Release 1.3.17-testing
◦ Talker buttons in Stage now show proper status.
◦ Issues with 14bit MIDI CC's corrected" Now of course, those are just words, but I am seeing the proper pairing coming through in the midi monitor. Also, I have the same result with the doubled VCS faders. Ok here's from the midi monitor. Using CC0 14 bit 14:40:55.570 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 19
14:40:55.570 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 2
14:40:55.581 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 47
14:40:55.581 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 2
14:40:55.593 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 107
14:40:55.593 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 2
14:40:55.605 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 11
14:40:55.605 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 3
14:40:55.616 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 55
14:40:55.616 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 3
14:40:55.628 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 103
14:40:55.628 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 3
14:40:55.640 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 19
14:40:55.640 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 4
14:40:55.651 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 67
14:40:55.651 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 4
14:40:55.663 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 19
14:40:55.663 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 5
14:40:55.674 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 51
14:40:55.674 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 5
14:40:55.686 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 87
14:40:55.686 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 5
14:40:55.697 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select (fine) 119
14:40:55.697 To Paca(rana) Control 2 Bank Select 5
Not sure that it matters but I am using Paca Connect as well.
[This message has been edited by bar|none (edited 17 May 2011).] [This message has been edited by bar|none (edited 17 May 2011).]
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posted 17 May 2011 17:39
Sadly, the BCR 2000 and the EigenHarp send the 14-bits in the opposite order from one another. Too bad they could not agree on a standard. That means we will need two different 14-bit implementations. (Actually the LSB-followed-by-MSB makes the most sense for compatibility with 7-bit controllers.)
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posted 17 May 2011 18:26
Well Christian said >"I use the BCR 2000 with the standard 14Bit CC mode(it supports lots of other MIDI modes too)."Maybe they support the other mode. 
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ChristianSchloesser
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posted 19 May 2011 09:00
There is only this absolute 14 Bit mode on the BCR 2000 but it is actually compatible to 7bit CC.
The MIDIBox and my moog slim Phatty use the MSB + LSB variant.
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