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Author Topic:   Music, Mathematics, and Language
RXB
Member
posted 14 April 2004 18:58         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the most Eighth Nerve:

"Mathematician Laura Tedeschini-Lalli (who refers to Kyma as "my experimental apparatus from Urbana-Champaign") was interviewed on national Italian radio where she was asked: "What have mathematics and music had in common throughout history?"  Her answer:
Well, I'll tell you what mathematics and music have in common in the hearts of those who do both. We all stand outside of that area defined by 'the pale of words', as English poet Alexander Pope describes it. The area where the minds of our students are confined. Music and math stand beyond the pale of words, looking out, exploring new territory. Musicians and mathematicians look for patterns; and when we don't find them, we invent them".

The implication here seems to be that music and mathematics are "beyond" not merely words, but beyond language itself. Mathematics and music are certainly different from verbal language, but they are not "beyond" it. Mathematics and music are non-verbal languages, but they are languages, nonetheless, with as many conceptual blinders and limitations (as well as possibilities) as verbal language.

I would also argue that patterns are always "invented", and never merely "found", but that's perhaps another matter altogether....

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SSC
Administrator
posted 15 April 2004 13:21         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think her original wording was "outside the pale of words" (so this is the fault of the editor). "Outside" would not have the connotation of being somehow better...just outside of that particular system.

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RXB
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posted 15 April 2004 22:56         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the clarification. The statement certainly makes more sense in that light.

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dan.dan
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posted 05 May 2004 14:46         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Metalanguage actually seems to be a connecting force, or unifying relationship between Kyma, mathematics, music, and generalized spoken and written languages. Each of these domains defines concepts which can be organized under the categories of subjects, objects, and predicates. Thus, each, in its own way, communicates about things and their relationships from some paradigm.

It almost seems like the paradigm shift that occurs when going from one to the next expands the horizons of one's mental models. Studying either music or mathematics generally impacts how a person perceives, understands, and interacts with the world around them. The same may be true of studying more than one spoken/written language, though perhaps to a lesser extent. Even studying Kyma itself, which, like mathematics, is essentially a spatially oriented graphical notation not directly connected with spoken words, provides new mental modeling tools. Musical notation, of necessity, models events in time that are related in space by pitch. Kyma models sounds and their elements freely as they are related in space, and then provides a timeline for arranging them in time.

Just some thoughts...

--Dan

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RXB
Member
posted 05 May 2004 21:15         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your thoughts are interesting. I tend to focus more on meta-statements than on the broader notion of meta-language, and, in any case, I would see meta-languages as being specific to their disciplines, not as cutting across them.

For the rest, I can speak only of my own experiences: I never studied music formally; I derived nothing from the formal study of mathematics except frustration and boredom; and my perspectives and mental models were broadened most powerfully by the study and practice of poetry. For this reason, I tend to defend verbal language from those who accuse it of having limitations. Most often, the limitations in question exist in the minds and capabilities of those who level such critiques, and not in verbal language itself. That said, it is a wonderful thing to be fluent in many "languages": verbal, mathematical, graphical, and symbolic. I wish that I were more so.

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dan.dan
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posted 06 May 2004 08:56         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It sounds like you're saying many, perhaps most, limitations of languages are not absolute, but relative to individuals. In other words, it's unfair to say generally that the language of mathematics is in some way more expansive than spoken/written languages. But it is fair to say that certain individuals find it to be so as they apply it.

A book I recently read about the UML (Unified Modeling Language) pointed out that one language may be said to be more "expressive" than another if it allows us to "more easily" express a wider range of concepts and relationships. Clearly there is a very subjective aspect to language expressiveness, but the author makes the argument that, generally, for example, the language of arithmetic is more expressive than the language of counting. That is said to be so because the language of arithmetic expresses the concept of 1000 with 4 digits, while the language of counting would need 1000 objects, which would take both more space, and a lot more effort to comprehend. Similarly, arithmetic may express the quantity 2.125, while putting together exactly two and one eighths objects may be impractical, and, again, may be difficult to precisely comprehend.

Taking that definition of "expressiveness" (expressivity?), it seems clear that certain languages can be objectively classified qualitatively as more expressive than others. For example, there is enough formality of concept definition in mathematical notation to express succinctly concepts that would require thousands of words of English. And, for the person who understands the notation fluently, comprehending the mathematical statements is far easier than comprehending the same concepts described in English.

But mathematics is more expressive only of a certain class of ideas. Musical notation is more expressive of certain musical ideas. And so forth. Consider Kyma itself. As a sound design language, Kyma is very expressive. Open a sound in the sound editor and you can quickly comprehend its parts and how they are related. Double click on one of its inner objects and you can see the parameters and how they are related. And so forth. Explaining exactly what sequences of digital synthesis and processing should be combined, and in what ways to make up a given sound would take far more English, and be far more work to comprehend, than than the same idea modeled with Kyma.

In each case, though, the underlying assumption is that the user of the language has invested significant time and mental energy into becoming fluent in the language. The question of whether that energy is well spent or not is a very personal, individual one.

It's one thing to say a language like Kyma is useful for sound design, or a language like mathematics is useful for science and engineering. It's a different thing altogether to suggest that learning such a language is enlightening to the individual that does so. We do know, however, that some individuals have found that to be the case, while others have not.

Regards,
--Dan

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KX
Member
posted 06 May 2004 09:23         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A lifetime being so short, I tend to "surf" over formal maths, physics,
psychology, philosophy etc, to get the clearest picture of my surrounding environement. (while being pejorative, surf is the first word that comes to my mind)
As far as music composition is concerned, I'm trying to avoid any language because, scientific formal languages
excepeted, they (words, music or any artistic form) often lead to misunderstanding; their cultural nature and the way memory (including emotional memory)is implied in the process of understanding prevent to obtain a "direct communication path". Some will use those cultural references to communicate; perhaps I'm an utopist (or simply dumb!)
but I'm still trying to find the direct path.

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RXB
Member
posted 06 May 2004 14:09         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the end, to me, it's very simple: Verbal language has certain unique capabilities and limitations, mathematical or other non-verbal languages have theirs, and so forth. (And yes, in my view, the limitations of individuals' abilities to use these languages tend to manifest long before the limitations of the languages themselves do; therefore, one oughtn't to confuse the one with the other). Each form of language has its niche to fill. Each is superior within its own domain, and neither is superior outside it.

Difficulties arise when, in an area such as electronic. electroacoustic, or computer music, someone (such as I) who is not fluent in the dominant language (mathematics) attempts to enter the field. Even then, however, resources are not lacking. Witness Curtis Roads's very non-quantitative Computer Music Tutorial, or Trevor Wishart's Audible Design. These works prove that verbal language is neither handicapped nor inefficient when it comes to expressing essential concepts in the area of computer music, which is my area of concern.

For the rest, the "direct path" is the experience of experimenting and making music itself, keeping in mind, of course, Pasteur's dictum that "chance favors the prepared mind".

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dan.dan
Member
posted 07 May 2004 15:47         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All languages that I know of communicate models. For example, musical pitch is a spatial model of frequency, the latter phenomenon actually being inseparable from time. But it is helpful to model it when communicating.

Languages build increasingly detailed and complex models by defining concepts, and then by combining those concepts to create more elaborate concepts, and so forth. Because spoken languages are our "first" languages, they are learned "by osmosis", and are therefore very difficult to separate from cultural biases in practical use. That's not a limitation of the languages, but of how they are learned and used in practice.

Any communication that requires the "receiver" to comprehend an extremely limited set of common definitions is very limited in terms of the complexity of *ideas* that it can express. (I imagine trying to communicate to someone who doesn't speak English, and I don't speak their language).

It almost seems like the "direct path" would be on the most primal level, based purely on intuition (since it cannot rely on agreed-upon definitions of concepts). It would seem to me that it would be more error prone than the others, in terms of communicating ideas.

On the other hand, when we move outside of communicating ideas with language into shared experiences, then we have something very direct. Rather than telling you about an experience, if I can share it with you, it becomes both something I have shared, as well as something new to me because you have shared it with me.

But that doesn't seem to be communication any more. It seems to be experience.

Personally, I like art that is "about" the inner experiences of the performer (some forms of dance, for example). It does not try to communicate what those inner experiences are, and I know that I cannot share them, but I enter into the awareness that they exist--that there is an entire unique universe within each individual that only they will ever know.

For some reason, when art can show the inherent uniqueness of individuals, it seems to lead right up to the edge of that "direct path". It almost seems like art must make virutally no direct attempt at communication in order to get there. When it is trying to say something, we are in a mode of trying to comprehend it. When it isn't trying to say something (at least not trying to communicate *ideas* anyway), we may simply experience it along with the performers. It is less of a "presentation" and more of a "designed shared experience".

The best of such experiences provoke a lot of ideas on the part of the audience participants, but not because those ideas are communicated; rather because certain experiences lead intuitively to thoughts and ideas and emotions and such.

--Dan

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dgkiers
Member
posted 09 May 2004 05:53         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A possibly relevant text by Theodor W. Adorno: http://www.msu.edu/user/sullivan/AdornoMusLangFrag.html

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KX
Member
posted 11 May 2004 19:23         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dgkiers,
Many interesting links about 50's and modern music aesthetic!
Thanks

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RXB
Member
posted 12 May 2004 22:15         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I second the thanks for the link to this article. I know that Adorno wrote a great deal about music, but I wasn't familar with this material. It is both relevant and interesting.

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