posted 20 April 2005 04:07            

I am Camille Troillard. I just had my Kyma last Friday and I was waiting for this moment since 4 years. Needless to say that I am now one of the happiest man in the world!

Here is the result of some of my work along with the manual.
I have not finished it yet, but I thought it was the right time for sending to the forum what I found. I'd like to have your comments about this.

Best Regards,
Camille TROILLARD
------

VARIOUS PROBLEMS:

1. There are a few redraw glitches in the Automation pane when setting a parameter using the Enter key : the previous automation is still displayed until an explicit redraw command (like zooming) is issued.

2.a. It is not possible to use the insert-marker function on Windows XP, the marker are always placed at 00:00:00:00.

2.b. While paying, pressing the insert-marker button in the timeline window, then pressing ESC brought this error message. (see the stack-trace below)

2.c. Soon after the Capybara stopped responding (The Capybara is not responding, no error) and reinitialized successfully. Those problem are perhaps unrelated. This error is not reproducible.

2.d. The MIDI program change event doesn't work properly and make the Capybara crash (Signal too short).

2.e. All these previous problems seem related : removing the "Clicks" Sound solves all the previous problems.

3. Hover help message label is bogus on the Marker MIDI Program Change button : "If you send this Program Change number on channel nil", even if a channel number is selected in the Timeline MIDI Channel Number list control. Setting a MIDI Channel Number in the MIDI Configuration panel (under DSP menu) doesn't solve this problem either.

4. 'Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder' has no replaceable input (c.f. page 67 of the manual), so control-dragging Disk-Bass loop has a strange effect (and should not work?): the sound Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder is completely replaced by Disk-Bass loop.

5.a. There are several places in the Kyma program where there are 8 audio inputs/outputs displayed although I do not have the audio expansion card. If I choose in the preferences to display only 4 I/O's this doesn't change the number of I/O's everywhere. Is it a normal behavior ? I guess it is for keeping the ability to make surround mixes with only 4 outputs.

5.b. HOWEVER: as seen on page 68 and previous pages the Kyma should only display the correct available number of I/O channels.

6.a. Setting Track Level and Angle controls to live doesn't generate the proper VCS : on a Timeline with 2 tracks (second track contains 2 sounds), the generated VCS only has the controls for Track 1. If I set Tracks 1's controls to Automated, then I can see Track 2's parameters. Not both as expected on page 85 of the manual.

6.b. On another Timeline the problem arises again with a bogus "Panner" (instead of "Angle") parameters generated from a sound of Track 2 (which is the only sound of the track, and has been cached).

7. Changing the cache file number of channels doesn't invalidate any cache. It seems to be a desired effect, but it is inconsistent with sound recaching policy.

8. The sound CloudBank Resynthesis loops when played live in the Timeline, but when it is cached, it only plays one iteration of the sound. I expected the behavior to be the same in live or cached mode at the exception that the setting of the sound wouldn't be editable. NOTE: I tried to re-cache the sound and this time it has now its full length. This strange behavior is not always reproducible.

9. Recording sounds in cache is a bit paradoxal: if you need to save some processing power then you can use the cache function, but in practice the cache recording is almost always done "out of real time". Caching should be done in a sort of "offline mode", meaning of real time, with outputs muted and a modal window asking the user to wait or click the mouse to cancel.

QUESTIONS:

1. By pressing '-' on a Timeline region, is it possible to remove the last effect applied to the region. When control-dragging a sound over a region, it is possible to replace the region's input with the dragged sound. Is there a possibility to restore the original input sound of the region befroe control-dragging just like when typing '-' when the region is selected ?

2. Recording Live Parameters from an audio source generates a lot of events which locks the host computer during and after recording. How is it possible to limit the number of generated events in order to control a Timeline Parameter from an audio signal (as described in page 81) ?

STACK-TRACE:

Kyma encountered this unexpected condition: Subscript out of bounds: 14

This may have occurred due to a problem in one of your Sounds.
The following information is provided to help you track down the problem. If you continue to get this message after having made sure there are no problems in your Sound, please contact Symbolic Sound customer support for assistance.

----------------------------------------------

(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ) (class Array) received message #subscriptBoundsError: sent from
(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ) (class Array) received message #at: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberView (class FixedFormatNumberView) received message #display n: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberView (class FixedFormatNumberView) received message #displayOn: sent from
a BorderedWrapper on: a FixedFormatNumberView (class BorderedWrapper) received message #displayOn: sent from
a CompositePart (class CompositePart) received message #displayOn: sent from
a BoundedWrapper on: a CompositePart (class BoundedWrapper) received message #displayOn: sent from
a KymaDialogView (class KymaDialogView) received message #displayOn: sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #displayDamageEvent: sent from

KymaDamageEvent(a KymaDialogWindow): 91940778 597@376 (25@93 corner: 121@116 134@93 corner: 230@116 243@93 corner: 339@116 117@55 corner: 213@56 117@74 corner: 213@75 117@56 corner: 118@74 212@56 corner: 213@74 ) (class KymaDamageEvent) received message #dispatchFor: sent from
a KymaWindowSensor (class KymaWindowSensor) received message #repairDamage sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #raiseAndRepairDamage sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #keepAsFrontWindow sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #eventLoopBody sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #eventLoop sent from
BlockClosure [] in [] in KymaDialogController>>startUp (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
Object userInterruptSignal (class Signal) received message #handle:do: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaController>>interruptHandle: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaController>>interruptHandle: (class BlockClosure) received message #valueNowOrOnUnwindDo: sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #interruptHandle: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaDialogController>>startUp (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
Object errorSignal (class Signal) received message #handle:do: sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #errorHandle: sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #startUp sent from
BlockClosure [] in [] in StandardSystemController>>openTransientViewsTopWindowIn: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
BlockClosure [] in [] in StandardSystemController>>openTransientViewsTopWindowIn: (class BlockClosure) received message #valueNowOrOnUnwindDo: sent from
BlockClosure [] in StandardSystemController>>openTransientViewsTopWindowIn: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
BlockClosure [] in StandardSystemController>>openTransientViewsTopWindowIn: (class BlockClosure) received message #valueNowOrOnUnwindDo: sent from
KymaCursor normal (class KymaCursor) received message #showWhile: sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #openTransientViewsTopWindowIn: sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #openTransientIn:type: sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #openDialogIn: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaDialogView class>>runDialogWithString:icon:buttons:values:crButton: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethod sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaDialogView class>>runDialogWithString:icon:buttons:values:crButton: (class BlockClosure) received message #valueNowOrOnUnwindDo: sent from
KymaCursor normal (class KymaCursor) received message #showWhile: sent from
KymaDialogView (class KymaDialogView class) received message #runDialogWithString:icon:buttons:values:crButton: sent from
a KymaTimeLineController (class KymaTimeLineController) received message #handleException: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaController>>errorHandle: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethodwith: sent from
an Exception (class Exception) received message #propagatePrivateFrom: sent from
an Exception (class Exception) received message #reject sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #handleException: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaController>>errorHandle: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethodwith: sent from
an Exception (class Exception) received message #propagatePrivateFrom: sent from
an Exception (class Exception) received message #propagateFrom: sent from
an Exception (class Exception) received message #raiseRequest sent from
Object subscriptOutOfBoundsSignal (class Signal) received message #raiseRequestWith: sent from
(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ) (class Array) received message #subscriptBoundsError: sent from
(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ) (class Array) received message #at: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberView (class FixedFormatNumberView) received message #display n: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberView (class FixedFormatNumberView) received message #update:with: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberView (class FixedFormatNumberView) received message #update:with:from: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberModel (class FixedFormatNumberModel) received message #changed:with: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberModel (class FixedFormatNumberModel) received message #update:with: sent from
a FixedFormatNumberModel (class FixedFormatNumberModel) received message #accept sent from
a FixedFormatNumberController (class FixedFormatNumberController) received message #accept sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaController>>accept (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethodwith: sent from
OrderedCollection (a FixedFormatNumberController ) (class OrderedCollection) received message #do: sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #accept sent from
a KymaDialogCompositeController (class KymaDialogCompositeController) received message #acceptFromKey: sent from
a KymaDialogCompositeController (class KymaDialogCompositeController) received message #accept sent from
BlockClosure [] in [] in KymaDialogView class>>timeFromUser:initially:inTimeUnits:fromTimeline:ifCancel: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethodwith:with: sent from
a PluggableAdaptor (class PluggableAdaptor) received message #setValue: sent from
a PluggableAdaptor (class PluggableAdaptor) received message #value: sent from
a KymaDialogCompositeController (class KymaDialogCompositeController) received message #cancelButtonFromKey sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #cancelKeyPressed sent from
a KymaDialogController (class KymaDialogController) received message #processKeyboardEvent: sent from
BlockClosure [] in KymaKeyboardEvent>>dispatchFor: (class BlockClosure) received message #unboundMethodwith: sent from
a KymaDialogWindow (class KymaDialogWindow) received message #withExistingControllerDo: sent from

posted 20 April 2005 10:56            

I have also encountered the redrawing glitch in the parameters of the timeline, as well as that strange message about "capybara not responding, no error". I've seen that message a few times in the last couple of days in two different capybaras. I'd be curious to know what that is about. In one of them it was happening when trying to start kyma for some reason (just at the point when you'd expect to hear Carla's voice), and it wouldn't initialize. In the other one it happened when playing some sinewaves through the oscilloscope.

Congratulations on getting a Capy Camille, and have fun!

posted 20 April 2005 12:10            

Also, I like Hector's suggestion of compiling just a subportion when you are caching so you can still hear iit playing in realtime.

Now to the points:

>1. There are a few redraw glitches in the Automation pane when setting a parameter using >the Enter key : the previous automation is still displayed until an explicit redraw command >(like zooming) is issued.
>2.a. It is not possible to use the insert-marker function on Windows XP, the marker are >always placed at 00:00:00:00.
>2.b. While paying, pressing the insert-marker button in the timeline window, then pressing >ESC brought this error message. (see the stack-trace below)

We tried each of these but could not replicate the behavior you report. Some questions:
* Have you seen redrawing problems in other windows (aside from in the Automation window of the Timeline)?
* How long was the Timeline (total duration of the longest Sound)? And what was the zooming level?

>2.d. The MIDI program change event doesn't work properly and make the Capybara crash >(Signal too short).
>2.e. All these previous problems seem related : removing the "Clicks" Sound solves all the >previous problems.

You're right, something about the Clicks Sound doesn't seem to like the MIDI program change. We are looking into this one. Other Sounds seem to work fine with the MIDI program changes. Thanks for reporting it.

>3. Hover help message label is bogus on the Marker MIDI Program Change button : "If you >send this Program Change number on channel nil", even if a channel number is selected in >the Timeline MIDI Channel Number list control. Setting a MIDI Channel Number in the MIDI >Configuration panel (under DSP menu) doesn't solve this problem either.

FIXED! Thanks. (The help messages are formed when the window is first opened so it did not know which MIDI channel was selected yet).

>4. 'Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder' has no replaceable input (c.f. page 67 of the manual), so >control-dragging Disk-Bass loop has a strange effect (and should not work?): the sound >Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder is completely replaced by Disk-Bass loop.

When you drag and drop the Compressor onto the "Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder', the "Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder' becomes the ReplaceableInput. So Ctrl-dragging the Disk-Bass Loop causes the Disk-Bass Loop to become the input to the Compressor.

>5.a. There are several places in the Kyma program where there are 8 audio inputs/outputs displayed although I do not have the audio expansion card. If I choose in >the preferences to display only 4 I/O's this doesn't change the number of I/O's everywhere. Is it a normal behavior ? I guess it is for keeping the ability to make >surround mixes with only 4 outputs.
>5.b. HOWEVER: as seen on page 68 and previous pages the Kyma should only display the correct available number of I/O channels.

You're right, the menu for the Timeline Track inputs was always saying 8 channels. This has been fixed to show the number of channels that you select in the Preferences. Thanks! (DSP Status was already displaying the proper number of hardware inputs/outputs).

>6.a. Setting Track Level and Angle controls to live doesn't generate the proper VCS : on a Timeline with 2 tracks (second track contains 2 sounds), the generated >VCS only has the controls for Track 1. If I set Tracks 1's controls to Automated, then I can see Track 2's parameters. Not both as expected on page 85 of the manual.

I suspect that you may have skipped the step of selecting all of the Sounds first (using Ctrl+A). The automation menu affects *only* the selected Sounds' tracks.

>6.b. On another Timeline the problem arises again with a bogus "Panner" (instead of "Angle") parameters generated from a sound of Track 2 (which is the only >sound of the track, and has been cached).

Could you email this one to us so we could try it?

>7. Changing the cache file number of channels doesn't invalidate any cache. It seems to be a desired effect, but it is inconsistent with sound recaching policy.

Interesting question. Does changing the number of channels or bit depth refer to any *future* caches? Or should changing that information force you to redo all the caches you have already made?

>8. The sound CloudBank Resynthesis loops when played live in the Timeline, but when it is cached, it only plays one iteration of the sound. I expected the behavior >to be the same in live or cached mode at the exception that the setting of the sound wouldn't be editable. NOTE: I tried to re-cache the sound and this time it has now >its full length. This strange behavior is not always reproducible.

Were you using a WaitUntil?

>9. Recording sounds in cache is a bit paradoxal: if you need to save some processing power then you can use the cache function, but in practice the cache >recording is almost always done "out of real time". Caching should be done in a sort of "offline mode", meaning of real time, with outputs muted and a modal window >asking the user to wait or click the mouse to cancel.

Often, though, one *would* like to hear the Timeline, even if it is running behind real time. I liked Hector's suggestion to ctrl-click only *some* of the Sounds and then using shift-space bar to play. That way you can monitor a subset of the Sounds in real time while caching.

>1. By pressing '-' on a Timeline region, is it possible to remove the last effect applied to the region. When control-dragging a sound over a region, it is possible to >replace the region's input with the dragged sound. Is there a possibility to restore the original input sound of the region befroe control-dragging just like when typing >'-' when the region is selected ?

I think you are asking whether it could replace the ORIGINAL ReplaceableInput (the one that the Sound had when you first dragged it into the Timeline). Say you have Sound-A in the Timeline. When you drag and drop Sound-B onto it, Sound-A becomes the ReplaceableInput for Sound-B. This is necessary in order to make the "-" work. The downside is that Sound-A's original ReplaceableInput is no longer remembered (there can be only ONE ReplaceableInput in the Sound). Changing this behavior would require giving up the "-" functionality.

>2. Recording Live Parameters from an audio source generates a lot of events which locks the host computer during and after recording. How is it possible to limit the >number of generated events in order to control a Timeline Parameter from an audio signal (as described in page 81) ?

Maybe we should offer an option of downsampling the Sound input to the MIDI rate so you do not end up with as many breakpoints? We *do* drop points that lie on a straight line connecting two other points, but when you are recording audio as a MIDI controller you still end up with lots of points. In the meantime, one thing you could try this: in your SoundToGlobalController, downsample the input Sound. For example:

[AmpFollower] L: 10

posted 20 April 2005 13:29            

The book is great!
I have nothing to say about it, it is simply great.

> Also, I like Hector's suggestion of compiling just a subportion when you are
> caching so you can still hear iit playing in realtime.

This is a very good idea, the partial-timeline compilation is a handy feature.

> Now to the points:
> >1. There are a few redraw glitches in the Automation pane when setting a
> >parameter using >the Enter key : the previous automation is still displayed
> >until an explicit redraw command >(like zooming) is issued. 2.a. It is not
> >possible to use the insert-marker function on Windows XP, the marker are
> >>always placed at 00:00:00:00. 2.b. While paying, pressing the insert-marker
> >button in the timeline window, then pressing >ESC brought this error
> >message. (see the stack-trace below)
> We tried each of these but could not replicate the behavior you report. Some
> questions:
> * Have you seen redrawing problems in other windows (aside from in the
> Automation window of the Timeline)?

No, I think it only happened is the Automation window of the Timeline.

> * How long was the Timeline (total duration of the longest Sound)? And what was
> the zooming level?

I'd say 60 seconds. This is the timeline from the example in the book that uses
the "Clicks" Sound.

> >4. 'Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder' has no replaceable input (c.f. page 67 of the
> >manual), so >control-dragging Disk-Bass loop has a strange effect (and
> >should not work?): the sound >Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder is completely
> >replaced by Disk-Bass loop.
>
> When you drag and drop the Compressor onto the "Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder', the
> "Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder' becomes the ReplaceableInput. So Ctrl-dragging the
> Disk-Bass Loop causes the Disk-Bass Loop to become the input to the Compressor.

Uh ok!
Now I understand.

> >6.a. Setting Track Level and Angle controls to live doesn't generate the proper
> >VCS : on a Timeline with 2 tracks (second track contains 2 sounds), the
> >generated >VCS only has the controls for Track 1. If I set Tracks 1's
> >controls to Automated, then I can see Track 2's parameters. Not both as
> >expected on page 85 of the manual.
>
> I suspect that you may have skipped the step of selecting all of the Sounds
> first (using Ctrl+A). The automation menu affects *only* the selected Sounds'
> tracks.

Nope ;-) I tried many times, by selecting a few different controls but without
any results. Let me try again with and describe with some screenshots before
investigating deeper into that question.

> > >6.b. On another Timeline the problem arises again with a bogus "Panner"
> > >(instead of "Angle") parameters generated from a sound of Track 2 (which is
> > >the only >sound of the track, and has been cached).
> >
> > Could you email this one to us so we could try it?

[see previous answer]

> >7. Changing the cache file number of channels doesn't invalidate any cache. It
> >seems to be a desired effect, but it is inconsistent with sound recaching
> >policy.
>
> Interesting question. Does changing the number of channels or bit depth refer to
> any *future* caches? Or should changing that information force you to redo all
> the caches you have already made?

I am thinking loud :

That leads to that question : why is there the choice for a bit depth? This is
only sound caching, thus the bit depth at least equal to the recorded file bit
depth, in order to record the Timeline to the hard-disk in the best possible
quality. Hence, cached files should be 24 bits, without choice. The number of
tracks for the cached file should equal to the number of tracks at the output of
the Sound (which is probably difficult to know [?]).

> >8. The sound CloudBank Resynthesis loops when played live in the Timeline, but
> >when it is cached, it only plays one iteration of the sound. I expected the
> >behavior >to be the same in live or cached mode at the exception that the
> >setting of the sound wouldn't be editable. NOTE: I tried to re-cache the
> >sound and this time it has now >its full length. This strange behavior is
> >not always reproducible.
>
> Were you using a WaitUntil?

No.

> >1. By pressing '-' on a Timeline region, is it possible to remove the last
> >effect applied to the region. When control-dragging a sound over a region,
> >it is possible to >replace the region's input with the dragged sound. Is
> >there a possibility to restore the original input sound of the region befroe
> >control-dragging just like when typing >'-' when the region is selected ?
>
> I think you are asking whether it could replace the ORIGINAL ReplaceableInput
> (the one that the Sound had when you first dragged it into the Timeline). Say
> you have Sound-A in the Timeline. When you drag and drop Sound-B onto it,
> Sound-A becomes the ReplaceableInput for Sound-B. This is necessary in order to
> make the "-" work. The downside is that Sound-A's original ReplaceableInput is
> no longer remembered (there can be only ONE ReplaceableInput in the
> Sound). Changing this behavior would require giving up the "-" functionality.

I think that I missed something about the concept of control-dragging a sound
over another, thus leading to confusion.

> >2. Recording Live Parameters from an audio source generates a lot of events
> >which locks the host computer during and after recording. How is it possible
> >to limit the >number of generated events in order to control a Timeline
> >Parameter from an audio signal (as described in page 81) ?
>
> Maybe we should offer an option of downsampling the Sound input to the MIDI rate
> so you do not end up with as many breakpoints? We *do* drop points that lie on a
> straight line connecting two other points, but when you are recording audio as a
> MIDI controller you still end up with lots of points. In the meantime, one thing
> you could try this: in your SoundToGlobalController, downsample the input
> Sound. For example:
>
> [AmpFollower] L: 10
>
> would sample the AmpFollower once every 10 milliseconds, resulting in fewer
> breakpoints in the Timeline.

posted 20 April 2005 13:54            

I just wondered if you realized that in almost all cases if you get the error message "Out of real time", it still continues working if you leave it, and that although the sound is chopped up while it is being prossesed it will end up sounding clean when you play back the cached version.

Pete

posted 20 April 2005 16:17            

Yes, I saw that.
My suggestion actually was a suggestion for improvement as out of realtime clicks are annoying :-)

Cam

posted 20 April 2005 16:45            

* Problem 1

This one is easy to reproduce :

a. Create a Timeline with "Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder" on track 1 and "Clicks" dragged from the prototypes on track 2.
b. Play the timeline, adjust the parameters to your taste in the VCS.
c. Select all the sounds in the Timeline and do 'set selected sounds' live controls to current values' in the Automation menu of the Timeline.
d. Now use 'Track Level & Angle Controls' from the 'Automation' -> 'Live' menu.
e. Play the timeline again, Angle_Trk1, Angle_Trk2, Level_Trk1 and Level_Trk2 should be displayed but it is wrong : instead of Level_Trk1, you have Volume, which is a sound parameter of 'Freq/Time Scaling Vocoder'.

The problem is reproducible and the bogus control parameter is randomly chosen, depending on the sound that is used in the Timeline.

I can send you the Timeline if you want it. Can I send it to symsound@SymbolicSound.com ?

* Problem 2

If Timeline playback is prematurely interrupted, the sound caching is wrong, and it doesn't seem to be recached correctly neither.
I thought that only one iteration of the CloudBank sound was cached, but it doesn't have any relation with this sounds, rather I stopped the playback during cache recording.
For a correct caching, one must wait from the beginning of the sound to its end. I suggest that this feature should be automated in order to avoid strange behaviors or results. Another solution would be to track what is missing in the sound's cache and append the computed cache until the sound has been played entirely. When the sound's cache is complete, the sound turns into a cached sound ... just my 0.02 € ...

posted 28 April 2005 10:30            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SSC:
Does this explanation fit?

---

I think this explanation fits. Still, the behaviour is not the one that I expected. As I described, no custom MIDI parameter controls has been set, expect the ones that are set by default.

I guess that if I choose to display the selected track's Level and Angle, I should get only those parameters in the VCS, is that right ?