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Author Topic:   Word Clock
Larry Simon
Member
posted 21 February 2002 09:15         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an Akai sampler with AES/EBU digital i/o. I tried using my Capy to record a performance on the sampler and it worked fine. Having read more about it, I looked into getting a MOTU Timepiece to provide Word Clock but discovered that I had a problem: one WC out on the Timepiece, one WC in on the sampler and Capy, and the need for another $300 1-to-many WC box to connect them all. For a simple non-professional application like mine, would a splitter really be so bad? The cables would all be < 3 ft. Advice/opinions?

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Frank Kruse
Member
posted 21 February 2002 19:06         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if possible iŽd clock everything to AES. saves you a lot of trouble and cables...

frank.

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Larry Simon
Member
posted 22 February 2002 08:29         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Frank. I'm not an audio professional so I'm not sure what's involved. Are you implying that the AES connection has enough timing info in it that I won't get drop outs without Word Clock, or would I need a master AES box of some description?

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pete
Member
posted 22 February 2002 16:05         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree whole hartedly with Frank.

If AES is the source you need to be in sync with, then that the best thing to sync to. The only reason to sync to word clock is when you have a studio with a patch bay and you keep un pluging inputs . In this case you would have to keep changing the sync source every time you repatched. You can't split word clock in the same way as you would with an audio signal, as the clock signal level will be halfed . The source impeadance matches the input impeadance. I always find that syncing to AES or SP/DIF is more relyable anyway.

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 22 February 2002).]

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Larry Simon
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posted 22 February 2002 16:25         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, so I have the sampler with AES/EBU (switchable to SPDIF) in and out, and likewise the Capy. Out goes to in both ways. Is that all there is to it and everything's great? Or do I need other hardware and connections, and/or to set some kind of options in either the sampler software or Kyma to be guaranteed error-free communication? I was told by the guy in the recording department of the music gear store I frequent that without word clock sync I'd get the occasional dropped sample.

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SSC
Administrator
posted 22 February 2002 17:55         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The AES signal has a clock along with the data, so that is enough to synchronize the two systems.

BTW, you will need to choose the AES input as the clock source in the DSP Status panel if your sampler is not using the clock from the Capybara's digital output.

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pete
Member
posted 23 February 2002 06:21         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also make sure that one of the units is set to internal sync.
If both are looking to each other for sync you get real problems.
Also the sampler must have the ability to sync to its input if it is to be the slave. May be the man in the shop is talking about a setup where one of the units in your system could only be a master and maybe your sampler is only capable of syncing to word or internal.In this case you would have to use word. But the cappy can be a slave to input so there should be no problem. You would get the occasional droped sample if the two units were in free run with no sync.

I have a home setup with a motu 2408 and an alesis QSR sound module with digital output (no signal input).
The text book method of connecting these two would be to let the motu supply word clock to the QSR and then connect the QSR digital to the motu. It simply doesn't sync.I've used every type of cable and it some of which are only two inches long. Of cause MOTU say it's a problem with the Alesis and Alesis say its a problem with the MOTU. I simply make the Alesis the master of the whole studio via digital signal paths, and it works perfectly.

Also we use Audiovision in two of our studios.
Avid supply audiovision digidesign interfaces that use word clock. and they only garentee currect operation if you use the five inch long cable that they supply. And its true . If you use anything else it stops syncing. It seems that word clock is most maufacturers after thought and never realy gets tested fully in all situations, and I suspect that most users end up finding a get round some other way, and it rearly gets reported back as an error to the manufacturer.

If it's dropouts, incompatability and specilized cables that you want, then word clock is the perfect supplier.

If you read a lot of books , word clock seems the right way to go, but in the real world, you learn to avoid it where ever possable.

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 23 February 2002).]

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Larry Simon
Member
posted 24 February 2002 18:02         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

BTW, I just switched from StudioVision to Performer and from a G3 300 to G4 733. I can hardly contain myself. Really looking forward to that ASIO integration.

Larry

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nkf
Member
posted 27 February 2002 20:59         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pete wrote:
>>>If you read a lot of books , word clock seems the right way to go, but in the real world, you learn to avoid it where ever possable.<<<
>>>The only reason to sync to word clock is when you have a studio with a patch bay and you keep un pluging inputs .<<<

Your generalisations are all wrong. Most pro equipment has very good wordclock implementations and this is the way to sync digital equipment to avoid possible framing errors (I think Yamaha called it in the past 'bit shift'). AES/EBU implementations can work for a few connections and in fact I use it too if nothing else is possible. But if you have a somewhat larger setup you're forced to construct a mess with daisy chained AES/EBU (or even S/PDIF) connections. This can produce timing errors between digital devices thru different cable lengths. Some devices can produce digital feedbacks therefore you have to use 'black frames' for syncing. All this adds up to a technical and ergonomical mess that is elegantly solved with wordclock connections via WC distribution amps. As the wordclock master I would suggest the DA converter you listen to. The technical details are better explained by the mastering engineer Bob Katz. My technical knowledge is limited in comparison.
Another advantage with distributed wordclock is that you can switch off and on your devices without disturbing your digital setup by accidently shutting down an AES/EBU device you need for syncing.
Wordclock is not to be avoided, as you stated, but instead the prefered, superior solution. This is based on 'real world' experiences.

Nirto Karsten Fischer

[This message has been edited by nkf (edited 27 February 2002).]

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pete
Member
posted 28 February 2002 09:09         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Nirto
Your right, I am making generlisations based on my own limited expereance and I'm glad that your expereance has lead you to a different view altogether. I could have stated more examples where word clock would be benaficial some of which you've stated. I could have also have made more examples of where word clock had let me down but I thought that my reply was already too long.
I don't think I am alone in my wish to avoid using work clock as many studios in Soho (UK) are moving to the new AES Sync (sometimes called digital silence or mute) and some equipment manufacturers already have dedicated AES sync inputs/outputs.
I do agree with the princable of equipment being kept in sync without relying on the signal path to provide it, and AES sync seems to have the best of both worlds.
That aside, I think you would agree with me that in larrys set up the cost of Word DAs and extra cables is not nessasery. If you disagree I hope you'll say.

Pete

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 28 February 2002).]

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Larry Simon
Member
posted 28 February 2002 09:22         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now this is starting to sound like the conversation at Steve's Music again. The Recording Dept. guy said that AES was iffy and the Digital Recording guy said, "Oh yeah, what you need is this $3,000 sync unit with built in WC amps..." I tried to cut him off with "But this isn't a professional application." At which point he looked at me and said, "That's cool", and pointed out some even more expensive solutions. Maybe I'm the only one who finds this funny, but somehow "That's cool" strikes me as hilarious. I guess that comes from dealing with big name rockers every day, and I guess knowing some of them when they were nobodies.

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pete
Member
posted 28 February 2002 12:44         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ye Larry
This leads to another rock expresion.

"suck it and see"

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